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AUTHOR SUBJECT: Slow rotation during filming
Kevin Sweefarend
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Posted: 8/15/2016 10:06:20 PM
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REPLIES:   33

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Posted: 8/16/2016 4:11:08 AM
cinetics.com/axis360-pro/


THE FILMINATOR
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Posted: 8/16/2016 4:31:32 AM
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Sv Bell | Black Flag Pictures
Sv+Bell
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Posted: 8/16/2016 4:57:53 AM
"Filmmaking is about innovation."

Depends on the filmmaker of course. There are filmmakers who make films for the sole reason of playing with gadgets, trying new cameras with higher and higer definition, experimenting with technology toys or the latest taste of the day plugin. Other filmmakers make films to tell stories and entertain their audience.


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Posted: 8/16/2016 5:28:38 AM
Yes. And some do both; play with new toys and try to tell stories to entertain their audience.. The toys serve a purpose. It's when they fall into the hands of people who only want to play with them that there is a problem. Most indie films I know of fall into this category; guys just wanting to show off their After Effects plug-ins or new green screen. I saw one recently that had so many aerial shots that I could tell the team was just showing off their new quadcopter and trying to get their moneys worth.. My opinion is that if you feel you NEED the shot and it will cost money to get it then get it... Get the shot then sell the gear. Marius, the gear I linked to (above) is expensive but it has to be assumed that if someone is looking for that kind of a contraption, they actually have a need for it. The need can justify the cost. I think you were talking about time-lapse. The device I linked to does that but it also does real time motion control. ..... side note: sorry for the lack of paragraphs but for some reason when I post from my work computer, the format gets messed up.
Sv Bell | Black Flag Pictures
Sv+Bell
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Posted: 8/16/2016 7:16:15 AM
Correct, most indie filmmakers around are there more to play with toys and gadgets, and less about making a film.

I've had that discussion with several of my film, when dealing with my directors of photography. All of them were asking to get this or that new gadget that's all hip. Do we need it for the shot? No? Let's use something else. All DOPs want to work with the latest trending toy, and using the producer's budget to do so. They always wanted to shoot with a DSLR camera with fancy sets of lens, and I've always declined. DSLR recording format just isn't good enough and hardly make it thru quality control when you want to sell for distribution or TV networks!


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Posted: 8/16/2016 11:15:58 AM
Interesting.. I want to start a separate topic on the use of DSLRs. I've never heard anyone claim they are not good enough. In fact, I've heard people boast that they are superior to prosumer camcorders when it comes to image quality.
Sv Bell | Black Flag Pictures
Sv+Bell
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Posted: 8/16/2016 11:38:37 AM
They are indeed superior to prosumer, but not yet professional quality.
And image quality is OK, the problem is with the recording compression. That's where DSLR hurt. When you sell your film, quality control labs reveal everything. If you shot your film with compression and edit with compression, and deliver with compression, you're doomed. You need to film uncompressed, edit uncompressed, and output uncompressed. The key is to remain in 4:4:4 color subsampling. In analog video, 4:2:2 is good enough but digital kills colors so 4:4:4 is critical.

*Edit*
But again, it all depends what you intend your film for. If it's for indie release on DVD or post on Youtube, DSLR is definitely awesome. But if you plan on selling your film to a distributor or submit to TV networks, you need to conform to higher industry standards.


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Posted: 8/16/2016 12:31:17 PM
Understood...
MooiTV.com
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Posted: 8/16/2016 12:51:47 PM
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THE FILMINATOR
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Posted: 8/17/2016 12:15:32 AM
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Posted: 8/17/2016 5:57:43 AM
Yeah, the DSLR controversy sparked here has got me wondering about a few things. Chiefly, if DSLR is superior to what you get from a good quality camcorder then how do we explain the movies made by producers like Mike Conway (Exile) and Patrick Johnson (Crushed) and Vince Rocco (Kisses and Caroms). These DV and HD movies originated on camcorders, found distribution and are available as streaming and DVD.. maybe even on tv.. Also, I'm a little rusty on image color space. 4:4:4, 4:2:2, 4:1:1 and so on but one thing I need to come back up to speed on is why someone wouldn't just convert their video to uncompressed RGB color after importing it from the camera? Again, I'm rusty but you could render it out as 10 or 12 bit color then save the files. Do your editing on the original compressed files or offline copy then "conform" the uncompressed video and use it for color correction and "answer print". Re-rendering compressed footage causes a build up of compression artifacts and maybe some color shifting as Marius stated. You won't have that problem if you deal with uncompressed footage. Save the compressing for the delivery format. I think all computers these days can handle compressed HD and even compressed UHD 4K. Who cares if your system doesn't have the muscle to run uncompressed video. You don't have to.

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Posted: 8/17/2016 6:03:07 AM
Again, rusty but, using the scopes found in any good editing program or color correction suite, can't you adjust your video to meet quality control standards. I remember that one of the scopes reports on a specific aspect of the video and has 3 squares on the screen that show where the signal should be if things are adjusted properly. I feel stupid writing something that vague but I don't have my books with me right now. Anyway, I remember that that scope is key to showing you if your video is within industry standards or needs to be adjusted. SV or Mike Conway, fill me in..
THE FILMINATOR
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Posted: 8/17/2016 7:04:37 AM
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Sv Bell | Black Flag Pictures
Sv+Bell
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Posted: 8/17/2016 7:13:26 AM
As Marius points out, yes, colors tend to shift and fade away with every edit you make. You should know that the editing software recompress everything in temporary file at every stage of your edit, not just export.

To fix that, you need to change your editing software's settings to match the compression source you're using. If you filmed with H.264 codec. configure your editing software with H.264 as default, and see if you have a setting that says something like "Do not recompress same codec". You will save a bit of that color fading. Always edit in the same codec as your origin to minimize damages. The best way is uncompressed all the way but very few cameras record uncompressed. HVX200 does it, among others.

And yes, you CAN sell a film that has been done with compression involved. The distributor may not be concerned by the quality control report and decide to move ahead and close the deal with the filmmaker anyways. However, with a QC report that points out your film is compressed, your licensing deal may fall from $75,000 to $15,000. Because the distributor will have a hard time selling it himself, placing it in TV networks. And if TV networks buy the rights of your film, it may be a 3 months license instead of 18 months. And so on. Remember that every output channel will have to compress your movie. If the master source you're selling is a compressed media, it can only get worst.

As to why it's not OK to convert to uncompressed RGB after importing from the camera, it's simply that it won't bring you any better quality. Your camera records compressed, and that movie clip is your best source available. If you record a film on TV that's presented in standard def, you won't have a better quality if you convert it to HD in post, right? Same goes with color space and compression. If you have a greyscale photo, converting it to RGB won't give you colors. The data is missing.

A camera that films in 4:1:1 color space will give you a clip in 4:1:1. Upsampling it to 4:4:4 in your grading program won't bring you colors and data that hasn't been recorded at its origin.


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Posted: 8/17/2016 7:53:04 AM
Right. You can't gain quality by uncompressing or converting to a better color spacing scheme but you can maintain whatever quality you do have. You can't get what you don't have.... and I know that Avid Composer has a feature that allows you to do an offline edit then replace the footage with the original footage very easily. You don't have to rebuild the edit. I think that Premiere Pro does too but I'm not completely sure. I'm planning on doing an offline edit then conforming the higher quality/higher res footage in preparation for color correcting.... and I would never use the preview files that Premiere generated when editing as a starting point for export. There's a little switch that let you tell it not to use the preview files............. My prime reason for wanting to uncompress the camera files is because I will be doing a lot of compositing... Save compression for delivery output; dvd/youtube/whatever... I love this kind of talk!

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Posted: 8/17/2016 8:34:22 AM
After thinking about what you guys have been saying, I have been considering shooting UHD 4K then down-resing to HD instead of planning a UHD 4K finished product. I haven't run any tests yet but I think that the downres'ed 4k footage will be cleaner than footage shot in HD..
THE FILMINATOR
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Posted: 8/17/2016 8:40:02 AM
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Sv Bell | Black Flag Pictures
Sv+Bell
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Posted: 8/17/2016 8:44:03 AM
Offline editing is the professional way to go. Of course, we don't read that anywhere, because vendors prefer to sell you faster computers, better software and so on. But offline is the best route. You can edit 4k video on an old x86 if you want. Any software will allow you to do offline when you understand the basics!
Sv Bell | Black Flag Pictures
Sv+Bell
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Posted: 8/17/2016 8:45:34 AM
Have you ever tried to do compositing / greenscreen work from an uncompressed source? You wouldn't believe the crazy difference it makes. You will NEVER look back!

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Posted: 8/18/2016 8:25:47 AM
It does make sense, Marius. As something that is worth considering, it does make sense.
THE FILMINATOR
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Posted: 8/18/2016 9:25:02 AM
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Posted: 8/18/2016 1:11:47 PM
Step back and read what I wrote. It is worth CONSIDERING. Didn't say to do it. Right now HD is still the standard. 4K will be someday but not today. 4K movies that are low budget and do not show off the awesomeness of 4K may not be welcome or even invited to the party. Translation; the 4K tv makers will want to WOW the consumer into buying 4K tvs that show images that are amazing. Same with Streaming video and Blu ray 4K. The last thing the new standard will want is a glut of grainy, compressed images that leave the consumer feeling like they just bit into an apple with a worm in it.. Just considering these things. Might decide one way. Might decide the other. It's called CONSIDERING your options... But look who I'm talking to. You've decided to tape your camera to an egg timer..
THE FILMINATOR
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Posted: 8/18/2016 11:41:31 PM
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Sv Bell | Black Flag Pictures
Sv+Bell
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Posted: 8/19/2016 5:07:44 AM
And don't forget that 4k will soon be outdated. Tech gadgets have a very short lifespan.
8k TVs have been introduced in 2014, and LG, Samsung and a few other manufacturers started to ship in January.

There's a 2014 article about 8k development. So far manufacturers (including Sony) are on schedule for their goal. 8k TVs are shipping, and broadcast tests have started.

8k broadcast 2014 article





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Posted: 8/19/2016 6:11:08 AM
I will be shooting in UHD 4K. That's why I bought the camera that I chose.  Maybe the word consider means different things to different people but when I introduced the idea of considering downresing 4k to HD I was mearly going along with the conversation. We were talking about getting the video to pass QC.  SV gave me some things to think about. Some things to consider.  That's all.  I was simply considering all of my options.

and we now return to our regularly scheduled programming...

THE FILMINATOR
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Posted: 8/19/2016 7:24:45 AM
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Velusion
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Posted: 8/20/2016 5:50:39 AM
Glad you asked, my son.  I'm planning to do with it whatever I can. I will do  some test screening for people and ask them to fill out questionnaires. Based on what I think the movie is worth along with the responses I get, I may seek an agent or sales rep, or both.  I have no expectations for distribution. If I end up developing a marketing scheme to show it on Youtube (or other) so that viewers can see the movie for a small fee ($1.50) then that's fine.  If I end up selling copies on the net for around $5 then I will.....  Here's the thing; even though I have no expectations, I think that I would be a fool to miss an opportunity for distribution because "we love the movie but the picture and sound needs some major rework"...  I think Vince Rocco went through that with his film, Kisses and Caroms. He was ready to deliver but the distributor, Warner Video, gave him a failing grade on the QC side. He had to do a lot of work and spend a lot of money to get the film to pass.  In the end they did distribute it and it did very well, sales wise, but he didn't make any real money.  He dumped a truck load of money into services that made the movie passable for the distributor but that put him deep in the red.  When the deal came through and he did get paid, I think he said he did little better than breaking even. I think his movie sold over 1 million copies..

Mike Conway, can you chime in here and tell what it was like getting EXILE to the market?  Did you have QC problems?..............  Mike's film found distribution in Japan and in the States.  In Japan I think he got a DVD deal. Local, I think he got several streaming deals.  I've seen it available on Amazon video and CinemaNow.com.

Yes, I am thinking about these things. I have to but, most of my time is working to actually get the movie made.  I've had problems with that part in the past.


Sv Bell | Black Flag Pictures
Sv+Bell
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Posted: 8/20/2016 7:23:29 PM
The QC thing is always a pain.

The tiniest little thing will be taken advantage of by the distributor to lower his initial offering. Don't forget anything, and do your homework. Do your sound design yourself but have the mix done by a professional. Have an M&E available, this is critical. Work uncompressed. Have a music cue sheet with ASCAP / BMI or anything associated. Have tons of production pictures and publicity stills available. These are the key items to get a distribution deal. My two last feature films got sold in several countries, aired on TV, and were dubbed in Czech, Russian, and Thai.

It's very fun to watch your film in a language you can't understand...!!

Mike Conway
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Posted: 8/20/2016 7:58:06 PM
No problems with EXILE, however, TERRARIUM required several fixes to pass Lions gate's QC. Some issues included image anomalies, but most of the work had to do with sound. Any scream that was the least bit distorted had to be replaced.

Posted From A Mobile Device


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Posted: 8/20/2016 8:03:41 PM
SV, what about proof of ownership. Does that come up?  I mean, if you contract someone to write the music is the contract good enough or do you need something in addition to the contract to show that not only did they perform the music for you but they also composed it as a work for hire.  Do they want to see copyright numbers?.. And what about the urban legend that you need permission to shoot EVERYTHING, even if it's being displayed in public. Thinks like a Mcdonald's sign that happens to be on the road your shooting.  Or the Nike logo on your shoes.  Is stuff like that just legal paranoia or is it real.  Will Coke really object if you're characters are drinking a coke or has an empty coke can laying on the floor of his filthy apartment?  I've heard people say "better safe than sorry".... true, but where does safety end and irrational fear begin?

THE FILMINATOR
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Posted: 8/21/2016 12:34:38 AM
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Sv Bell | Black Flag Pictures
Sv+Bell
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Posted: 8/21/2016 6:43:40 AM
James, the proof of ownership for the distributor is simply when you sign the distribution deal, and one of the points states that all rights are secured. They won't ask for more, but they will ask for a music cue sheet, with composers ASCAP numbers. Not all composers are ASCAP / BMI members so the sheet may be blank for some of your film's segments. That's not a problem. But they need the sheet - especially for television deals.

Here's a real life example. I operate Black Flag TV, a live web-based broadcast, and people submit their films to me for airing on the channel. Last year a filmmaker failed to secure the rights to one of the song. A tiny segment of 15 seconds that he'd taken from a CD he bought in store. I started airing the film, and months later, I received a letter from a lawyer firm, a formal Cease And Desist for that movie, issued by the record label. I pulled the film from my programming right away and contacted the filmmaker. He was sorry about that, and we've been very lucky it was only a Cease And Desist, and I was only a web-based TV broadcaster. If it was for a real TV network, chances are it would have been a formal lawsuit to the network, and then the network goes to court (and lose the case), then turn toward the filmmaker and bring him to court, claiming damages and interest. Filmmaker would have to pay for TV channels fees, PLUS all expenses incurred during the first trial. It may get really, really expensive. Make sure all music rights are cleared. There are people and companies auditing music presented in public. It's their full time business.

***

The only copyright number that a distributor will want to see is for the screenplay (again, mainly for the TV deals). Register your screenplay at the LOC, last time I registered a screenplay it was only like $70. You'll get a nice letter from the Library of Congress, with the US logo on top, your name as the author and the title of your film, with its registry number. No need to register with every country, you only need one, official, with a date stamp on it.

***

As for the logos seen in a film, it can potentially be a problem. Of course it's almost impossible to hide every single logo from a shot (like, as you pointed out, the Nike logo on an actor's shoes). For example, I'm pretty sure if you shoot a rape scene and the crime takes place behind a McDonald's sign, McDonald's won't like it and probably file a lawsuit. Or if a runner wins a race and is discovered a cheater, the slow motion shot where he crosses the line in his Nike shoes perfectly visible will get you in trouble with Nike. So always be careful with the logos seen in a shot. So do you need clearance with everything? Technically speaking, yes, but the best option is to get E&O insurances, that's exactly what they're intended for. Error And Omissions insurances protect the filmmaker against any lawsuit that may come up from stuff like that.

But, again, all these things won't matter if you only make movies for fun, to show on the web or release on DVD yourself. The worst that can happen (like the case I mention above with Black Flag TV) is that you'll get a cease and desist from someone. Brands will only file lawsuit if their public image is affected by a production that is seen by a lot of people. Like on television.


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Posted: 8/21/2016 11:42:46 AM
Thank you for all the great advice, SV.  It really helps.



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